Manchester Airport Forum | NVR July Continued

Please carry on discussions here, last one was getting a little long.

I think T3 would be able to cope if the flights were spread out evenly throughout the day, but sadly they aren't. FR tend to arrive in waves, with the infamous Friday evening rush where you can get 4-5 FRs all lined up behind each other descending into MAN.

Good news regarding Manchester-Moscow if it comes off. Also lets hope something is sorted regarding MAN-MAD however you can only do so much and as Manchester is the hub of economic growth in the North West in these financially stretched times then I would'nt be suprised if we didn't see it back for next summer. By the way a week or so ago I reported that MAN-NAP was not bookable as a flight only for a long weekedn. My mistake it is twice weekly if you book with Thomas Cook rather than Thomson - my apologies. DomyDom

If the Aeroflot route comes off, they of course are likely to operate from T3 also with them being Skyteam members.

Maybe that could force some action?

Qatar has announced MAN will go back to double daily in March, confirming aircraft shortages were the issue.

Its also going to add a daily BHX, 4 weekly EDI and daily LGW.

Thanks for that world_rep. Very interesting. I make that an extra 22 weekly flights into the UK in one move!

Do you happen to know the a/c types? Are we sticking with the A330 - 200/300 mix?

Just noticed that the statement by the CEO of QR quoted on pprune is slightly less specific, although he was rather more definite about the new daily BHX flights. Is your info. from a different source world_rep?

Yes mines from an internal source.

We will be a B787/A330 mix. BHX/EDI will be B787 and LGW A330.

Many thanks. It will be good to get back to double daily in line with EY

These have got some (good) news for MAN in the next few months too. All will be revealed!

World_rep, wonder if it's the rumours I have heard around work?! Good news indeed!

Good news about QR, I remember saying when I said they were dropping flights that they'd be back double daily by October, seems they are short of aircraft until the new year.

I wonder how the MAN and BHX services will work together. EK run them well side by side. Although I did read a report where Tom Clarke said the a380 service was drawing pax away from BHX. interesting

TOM787, sent you a PM.

Excellent news for Birmingham and Edinburgh. Also good to see them making a return to Gatwick. Could Qatar or Etihad be in line for more regional services later?

Etihad have got some big plans for MAN, so not sure about them, but Im assuming Qatar will need a fair while to bed the EDI/BHX/LGW services in before adding even more.

Appreciate you can't fully 'spill the beans' at this stage, but could you say whether these big plans are likely to further restrict the prospects of direct flights to say Hong Kong, Thailand or India (by increased EY frequencies to Abu Dhabi) or do they involve flights from MAN continuing westbound?

Lufthansa flights to Frankfurt are officially back as LH flights from October.

Booking engines currently say its a B737-500 on all flights, but doubt that's what will actually run.

Been off today and looking through a few booking engines, and noticed the following:

MAN-TXL on LH is minimum of £258 one way for the next week. Not bad!

MAN-MAD on Easyjet is on average, £28 more expensive than LPL-MAD, so bemused as to why MAN is cut but LPL is not?

MAN-SXF is on average £32 more than LPL-SXF.

world_rep; Is there any way you could hint at what these plans are?

Can only dream it's an upgrade on the EY21/22 to an A346 so I can finally see the F1 Jet (A6-EHJ)... one can only wish.

There are currently 2 plans. The second one is very much dependant how much the government can pull their finger out.

Plan A is well publicised already, its the 3rd daily flight, with a very high probability that F class will be introduced.

Confirmed that FR are back down to 2 aircraft for the winter

Shame, but I cannot say Im totally surprised. Ryanair do tend to 'over exaggerate' their plans. Im still waiting for the 10 based aircraft at BHX!

However, given we will gain 2 aircraft again in April time, could MAD return with them?

Im also guessing this puts paid to 6 aircraft from them? Not Ryanairs style to add 4 aircraft to a base in 1 go.

Have you seen the new Flightradar24?

You can have an 'aircraft view' option, where you have a flight sim style view, and is pretty cool.

I tend to agree. The problem is that if TCX did downsize still further, we would need compensating extra capacity from somewhere. MON seem fully stretched with a new base at LBA and significant expansion at BHX so that leaves TOM and Easyjet. Have you heard anything further world-rep re easyjet's plans for s2013. Is an 8 a/c base still a possibility?

As for Ryanair, didn't MOL say something like "we'll expand as fast as Manchester Airport wants us to"? Mind you, as has been pointed out, T3 struggles if 2 or 3 FR a/c arrive at the same time so 6 based might present a real problem.



Sam, I don't suppose you've any inkling yet as to what they might be doing for s2013. Is it slot applications (Nov.?) that gives some sort of clue?

I thought the FR plan all along was to go to 2 aircraft in the winter. They didn't hide the fact that a load of their routes were seasonal, especially the sun routes and some city destinations such as TLL and BIQ et al. I was having a chat with someone pretty high up at the FR MAN base and He seems to think FR will add 2 aircraft come summer 2013, almost Certain. Maybe the 2 parked aircraft will be reinstated in March for start of summer season (re start of summer routes, same time as this year), then aircraft 5 and 6 added mid way through the year? Time will tell. They want to expand anyway.

As for EY heard along the same lines. 3rd daily to be announced soon with a start next year, along with introducing F.

I saw A6-EHJ for the first time a couple of months ago when I was staying with family near LHR it is so beautiful in the flesh.

Source on pprune, Ryan air Madrid flight definitely binned.

Not seen Jet2 mention for this route, but I am sure it would fit into there city break programme,which they seem to run successfully.
A

I think what's slightly worrying about this is that Ryanair have not cut all services to MAD, some routes just having frequency reductions. But MAN is in the 'binned' group.

Similarly, easyjet, although closing the base, are only stopping 20% of their routes to MAD, and guess what, MAN is in the 20%.

We've lost some long haul routes in the past when a/c have been required for more profitable operations, and it does seem that some of MAN's services are marginal at best, which is unfortunate.
This is not true of some of our other services of course, which have been reported in the past as being among an airline's most profitable routes.

Why all 3 carriers should pull MAD though remains baffling. I wonder what the issue is:- fares, yields,
operating costs at MAN as well as MAD. It would be good to know what the airport are doing to try and plug the gap, unless one of the carriers has given an indication they will be back next year.

Regarding FR, Maybe we should wait until things become more concrete and from the horse's mouth so to say. It's been known that a large handful of their routes were only seasonal, these should be reinstated for the start of the IATA summer season at the end of march. Going off various sources (and widely talked about here) aircraft 5 and 6 should arrive next summer. A captain questioned me recently asking how the terminal would cope 'with more flights coming next year? We'll be like f**king busses!'

FR have been performing very strongly of late: today for example I think 140 pax outbound was the 'lowest' load I saw. MAD is a strange one, loads on FR are constantly strong, one of the better performing routes. Be interesting if it doesn't appear on the route map again soon. I'd like to think MON will give it a go, maybe jet2 As well.

Hi everyone some pax figures from today's flights.

EY015 191 245
EK021 192 227
QR041 222 160
UA020 166 165
SQ328 142 216
UA100 117 came in late again so no outbound figures.
AA210 168 179 also came in late having stopped at Dublin for fuel. Headwinds??
AA054 206 215
TK1993 120 135
DL8953 DL A319 with 77 pax and 177 bags I presume for Olympic athletes based in the North west.
EK017 431
EY021 248
EK019 325

A pretty good set of figures I'd say very healthy.

Cheers from Jimsdad

Thanks for those figures Jims dad, very pleasing indeed all the long hauls doing very well. I do wonder when will EK upgrade the 19/20!

At least the UA Washington made it at all today, cancelled on both Wednesday and yesterday!

The USA is experiencing some freak weather at the moment, massively high temperatures. I'm wondering if the record highs in New York are causing aircraft issues (Washington too).

Had a chat with the Libyan station manager today and it looks like they'll be back here in the near future...

the fact that he's still there says a lot!

Just a shame that we can't get Mahan back with all the politicking and other crap. There is certainly demand.

It is reported that Lufthansa are cancelling their Mun-Sin-Cgk flights as from end of October.

This hopefully may make Singapore look at decoupling the Munich leg from the Man flight as demand direct from Munich should see an increase to warrant a direct flight of its own......

The SQ rumour mill has been reporting that MAN-MUC will go Direct again eventually. Whether it stays as a 77W though if it does I'm not sure. Do they have spare 772 capacity?

As for UA, I'd like to say the weather. The washington was delayed yesterday and is today due to weather, the cancellations on Wednesday and Thursday were due to tech aircraft and 'crew hours' respectively.

you just need to look over jimsdad's figures for SQ to realise that there must have been some shifting in available capacity from MAN. Doesn't necessarily mean more premium seats released for MAN but perhaps they might have factored in that if few passengers were being picked in MUC for economy, combined with restricted MAN economy capacity, they were not maximising revenue potential. Robust cargo good economy loads o reasonable premium passengers loads means potential for a stand-alone operations. I do note one person has suggested the delinking on airliners.net but thinks we should get linked to SIN via another city; it's a bit of a hinderance for getting passengers away from using thier LHR services.

Perhaps it's an opportunity for SQ to continue with the present arrangements but up capacity to an A380!!

I know that wouldn't increase the cargo capacity but then again is it needed?

PIA to launch ISB/LHE/KHI-MAN-LAX/IAH/ORD with B77W/B77L. They want direct flights from Pakistan to the US, but very unlikely to get them so this is plan B.

Flights are likely to follow the JFK pattern and op back direct to Pakistan.

Ryanair to reduce the base down to 2 aircraft for Winter.

PK are apparently due some more aircraft, and the BCN stopover never worked well for them. Returning to Houston is a surprise.

As for SQ, the route screams A350 but it's too early obviously. They plan on using the XWB for longhaul routes like MAN and the superior economics will make the route even more viable if they go that way. It will also give MAN their newest and freshest cabin product.

Does anyone have knowledge on whether FR will be offering more or fewer seats from MAN this Winter compared to last? Lots of services use non based units so its hard to tell.

Hi everyone again pax figures from today for your perusal.

EY015 133 261
EK021 173 237
UA020 152 168
SQ328 130 228
AA210 157 178
AA054 181 217
TK1993 141 160 A321 today i believe
BRU853 120 106 Belavia from Minsk USSR
EK017 495
QR045 232
EY021 137
EK019 318

Pretty good figures again I'd say but why are Mid East routes busier outbound?

School holidays start this weekend

Was UA100 cancelled or delayed today?

UA100 was delayed it came in about 1130 as did the US Air!

Like how the SQ flight numbers are looking good over the last few weeks, Qatar are also hoping to go back up to double daily next year, but they are going to fly out of BHX too so it might not happen either, have to wait.

PIA to LAX makes me cry, gives us that nice NZ - 787 route that I keep dreaming of!

They have said it's purely down to aircraft shortages. As the 787s start arriving then they can restore frequencies to MAN, start up BHX and even return to LGW.

Those PIA routes are only one way and a security check so will not have any effect on MAN to LAX passengers but will provide a welcome revenue feed for Manchester

I've been trying to read into the backstory of MAD and all I can suggest is it's AENA and the increase in airport charges that's killing it off. The Spanish Government want more revenues from the operation, which is why EZY is pulling back Madrid service

Ryanair have frequently closed services where charges increased. All we can hope is that AENA don't strangle airports like Malaga too. It's a shame that new airport next to the train line was never finished.

Regarding SU and SQ direct, the rumours have been going around for ages now. I'll believe both when the tyres touch the tarmac...

Glad to hear PK are expanding again, at one point they were talking of canning USA flights altogether, firstly with the TK hook-up and then with the 6-hour layovers at MAN for security checks. LAX was rumoured internally a few years back, interesting that it's finally come to light although as already pointed out it will only be one way so it's hardly plugging the MAN-LAX-MAN market gap we've been seeking. I believe PK have more 77Ws on order so these must be for USA expansion.

I join the list of confused people wondering why FR are canning MAD, it has been one of their strongest routes since starting from here! We really need to get a replacement carrier onboard for MAD, really don't want us to be back to square one with no service to such a major European city, especially now it's been proven how much demand there is!

StarMonarA380

I reckon it's just down to the increase in fees at Madrid airport. The Spanish government is trying to rake in every last Euro they can and some taxes (like cigarettes and booze) have really taken a walloping.

Maybe MAG have to be a bit more proactive here and see if there is anything that can be done from this end, because it looks like AENA are playing hardball in Spain at their LHR-equivalent. The coastal airports are a third rail issue, but Ryanair did kick off about the fees increase at Gerona.

I'm just floating this as a theory but with the Spanish economy on the bones of its arse the state owned airport operator has probably been whipped like a rented mule and told to up the fees.

I'm sure you'r right that this is the reason for cut-backs by both easyjet and Ryanair at MAD. However, easy are still going to be running a sizeable list of services from other bases, as I believe are Ryanair, so the issue is why MAN is in the batch of routes to be axed by both carriers if it is doing so well.

On a separate topic, there is a rumour on pprune that Jet2 have just delayed an announcement of a new base at LPL, rather than abandoned plans altogether. Has anyone on here got any information about this story? If it happens, I don't see how it could be interpreted as good news for MAN even if Jet2's operation here does not contract or even grows slightly. I suppose the analogy would be of the cake in the region getting bigger but MAN's slice staying the same size i.e a fall in market share. The same might apply in terms of the new MON base at LBA when LN-KGL's analysis showed a significant proportion of MAN's pax come from Yorkshire, although as has been mentioned by others, access to LBA by road or rail is far from ideal.

On a more positive note, the loads on our long haul routes look pretty encouraging. Fingers crossed for the rumoured expansion by EY, the return of QR to 2 x daily and SU in 2014. Other possibilities seem to be AA to Miami and (eventually?) a route to China.

TNT have got slots in for a daily Leipzig using 75F equipment over the winter, something like 2145 departure and 0425 arrival.

World_rep, do you know about EIN too? Saw some interesting stuff regarding them at MAN.

Ref. MAN-MAD. It would be interesting to get some feedback from someone at the airport or anyone who may have some inside knowledge as to how we lost the Madrid route and what efforts if any are underway to get it reinstated. It does seem remarkably strange that of all the routes for FR (or EZY for that matter) to pull this it is this one that was apparently doing so well. It would have been the last one that I would have expected (apart from DUB perhaps). I would have thought it also unlikely that given the hard work that had apparently gone into securing it as one of our destinations that MAN would have let it slip out of it's grasp so easily, however stranger things have happened (no appearance of IB on the airports new routes page for example). I take the point about increased charges at MAD for example but as others have said it is viable from other airports. Very strange! Hopefully MON will pick it up but their planes do seem very heavily committed with expansion elsewhere at the moment.

An interesting article in the MEN about spotting at Manchester.

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/1584064_manchester-airport-named-one-of-worlds-top-destinations-for-plane-spotting

haven't the NZ stories just died, most people gave up on this months ago, it's not going come any time soon if at all! simple the airline will only fly point to point i.e AKL-SFO, with the exception of the London Market. the cost to operate another UK point would have lots of problems, even if they could make money on the route, they lack something called aircraft to do the route , when there is lots of talk of them starting IAH/ORD and DEN! at the moment.

May well be... EIN have applied for and been granted slots, but haven't specified a destination or aircraft type.



There was talk of Air NZ making an appearance during the Olympics but all seems to have gone quiet



MAG forced FR into allowing a duty free bag on board, and it's just MAN specific as far as I know rather than network wide

Few rumours from around work today.

AA to cancel the seasonal ORD-DUB from next year. Extra B767-300 to be shipped to MIA for the MAN flights.

UA to announce SFO-DUB/MAN for next year.

Aer Lingus regional to run BHD-MAN amongst others

Singapore to de-link MUC-MAN, and MAN being a 6 weekly direct flight. (MAN's weakest day is tuesday so maybe that cut)

Phillipine airlines have applied for 10 slots at MAN, make of that what you will.

They can apply for as many slots as they like however till they are removed from the EU black list won't be seen anywhere within the EU any time soon.



Could that be a greenish A332 codeshare per-chance ?

Yeah, I agree. Thats why I said make of it what you will.



No, 5 weekly B767-300 in a 2 class configuration. Not sure exactly on the DUB flights.

Copy and pasted from other place
just a guess i would consider Copenhagen (Old Varig route) Amsterdam (Both strong cargo and SLF in past) and Lisbon obvious cultural synergies as missing links for LATAM

A South America - Manchester direct service (Not counting charters to Margarita!)could be along way off , London struggles with links to this region as it is !

London, whilst capacity is lesser than it should be, I can assure you does not struggle.

BA to Rio and Sao Paulo always full and high yielding, TAM doing well and plenty connecting through Iberia.
There are quite a few connections from MAN to Brazil, my partners dad being a regular through CDG due to always struggling to get flights ex-UK.

The issue with LHR is slots, so MAN could be a remedy.

Add to this, BA internally and recently said 'we aim to increase our MAN international presence through our codeshares offered by our oneworld and franchise partners''

Just a thought.

Interesting stuff guys. Is there any scope at all for increased flights to the middle east. I am thinking here more the likes of Israel we used to have regular services from EL AL for example?
Also are Iran Air banned from entering EU airspace?

Answering #68:

There is expansion coming on MAN - Tel Aviv with EasyJet joining existing operator Jet2 on the route from this Autumn. No news from El Al at present; would they be interested in a three-way battle anyway? In any case, MAN is better served by developing routes sustainably rather than encouraging a bunfight like Madrid recently and Berlin in the past which results in all the operators losing money and withdrawing en masse. EXS and EZY should represent sufficient capacity for MAN-TLV at this stage.

Shame easyjet have gone for the same days as Jet however.

I think its a bit silly that there are 2 flights a day to somewhere on Monday, then you have to wait until Thursday for the next one!

I don't think MAPLC will be in any rush to attract El Al, they're more hassle than they're worth.

I also hear rumours that Air Blue have been bought out by PIA, so that might be one to keep your eye on in the future.

Oh god I hope not. Air Blue are actually half way to being reliable, and I would trust Air Blue to expand more at Manchester.

Ah well.

As I said, only rumours at this stage but PK buying out PA would make a few things 'click' together, in terms of Air Blue changing handling agent soon etc

Just the vagaries of the Israeli working week.

No orthodox will travel Friday/Saturday compounded with Sunday am always being light ex UK in general . So its Monday and Thursday being peak travel days.

If an extra flight gets added it will be Wednesday.

Sam i do hope the Generals haven't got their corrupt hands on Air Blue and agree El Al were/are a nightmare to have to deal with.

With El Al, they'll be demanding things like segregated check in areas, segregated gates and they'll also want MAPLC to purchase xray scanners etc for the gates which the flight will operate on. Check in space is at a premium as it is in all terminals, the only place I could see it working is T2 ground level check in

Or GTI / Train station check-in desks...

Just out of interest, when were the check-in desks in the train station used? Last I recall was Chav City Direct using them

Stood Southside getting bitten to death, whilst the sun slowly disappears and still no sign of EHC. Hope it's not a wasted journey! :-(

Just says final boarding on website Pole

Cheers. The teams been adding photos on Twitter for an hour of them onboard.

According to FR24 it's now on the move enroute to the runway

A380-800

Just got a few pics of A6-EHC over my house, will post best ones soon.

Statement picked up from another site:

From Travel Mole:

Ryanair to axe flights to Spain

Ryanair has become the latest budget airline to axe flights to Spain following a doubling of airport taxes.

EasyJet announced last week that it was closing its Madrid base and cutting the number of flights to Spain by 7% this winter due to the higher charges.

Now Ryanair has confirmed it will drop flights from the UK to both Madrid and Barcelona this winter.

It is axing 11 routes to Madrid, including flights from Manchester, and four routes to Barcelona, including flights from East Midlands and Leeds Bradford. It is also reducing frequency on many routes from both airports, including to Edinburgh, Glasgow and Liverpool from Barcelona.

Ryanair said the decision was in response to a doubling of airport departure taxes from July 1.

From November, Ryanair will base three fewer aircraft at Madrid and two fewer at Barcelona's El Prat airport.

I guess this is where 'austerity' gets you. Not like Madrid would benefit from tourism, direct business connections or anything.

If anyone's interested http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aena

As it's State owned, the move will be to get it profitable and then sell it off (Greece all over again basically). The money masters will want anything and everything to be up for sale if bailouts happen.

AENA will probably be split into the navigation arm and the property arm, and the assets division first to go. Fattening that particular pig for sale is already underway.

TCD were the last operator to use them as full check-in facilities. VS came very close to signing up to operate through there around 4 years ago but it fell through at the 11th hour. The Corsair 744 charters to DME for the Champions League Final 08 checked in at those desks but those flights were hand-luggage only.



All very exciting stuff. UA to SFO in particular would be awesome, and AA returning to MIA and SQ returning to direct SIN would also be excellent news.

SQ 6x weekly is great as well - remember that they were 3x weekly direct before switching to the service via MUC. Do we know what aircraft we would see? I seem to recall they are slowly phasing out their 772 fleet, so with the A330 lacking the legs would we be likely to see a 77W? More importantly, would they keep F from MAN to keep up with EK (and soon EY)?

StarMonarA380

Cheers for that

Just out of curiosity, logistically, how do they get bags from GTI to (T2?) baggage?

Sam

MAGs commercial director at CX head office today. Wish he'd get them to sign something!

Lufthansa are to increase MAN-DUS this winter.

Goes up to 22 weekly from 18 weekly (Will now be 4 daily M-F and 2 daily Su)

If you look around the back of The Station (near where the buses park) there's a shutter with a conveyor sticking out into a yard. The bags come out there and are loaded onto baggage carts, then driven round to T2 Service Yard. With security escorting they are taken through the gate airside (opposite Gate 300) where they are loaded onto a conveyor and fed directly into the baggage system, they then follow the usual route through the x-rays and down to the chutes.

Quite logistically complicated, which is why TCD/XL eventually moved to checking in with the other carriers in T2 Main Check-In.

StarMonarA380

OLT Express, who were scared off starting Manchester services by Ryanair, have suspended all ops.

Hi folks again from Jim some of today's pax figures.

EY015 211 210
EK021 204 130
QR041 234 152
UA020 152 156
SQ328 162 209
UA100 78 not supplied
AA210 170 not supplied
AA054 191 154
TK1993 129 129
EK017 384
QR045 214
EY021 214
TK1995 115

I went home before the last 4 outbound figures were available.

Cheers from Jim

Thanks for those figures Jims dad. Can add a couple. UA101 departed with 148 pax. EK018 departed with 443 pax and the inbound EK019 had I think ~300 or so.

UA looking strong in the coming weeks, showing good loads, as is EK outbound. Sure I've seen a spell during August when all three of their flights are pretty much full outbound, very good considering the upgrade of equipment on the 21/22 from 01AUG. Confident as we hit August and summer really swings in our network of routes is in good shape!

Hi again

Some more pax figures from today's flights until the end of my shift.

EY015 167 256
EK021 184 190
UA020 145 162
SQ328 110 194
UA100 158 156
AA210 164 179
AA054 182 not provided today
EK017 362
EY021 183
BRU853 125 105
TK1993 117 147

That's it for today.

Just an observation from the post on the movements page re the Atlas Air 747 return with Man Uni--ted squad on board could it be they're still sulking and are still very bitter over a certain dissapointing Sunday in May.

I've also heard from a colleague on T3 that Mr R. Ferdinand caused problems yesterday over removing his shoes when asked to do so mind you he always is rude and awkward towards staff. I've seen and experienced it myself from him. God's gift he certainly isn't and is subject to the same rules as anybody else including airport staff.

Guess who I support.

Cheers from Jim

He should use some of his spare change to hire a biz jet next time instead of flying Ryanair...

Not related to MAN (unless it causes diversions) but anyone watching FR24 will see plenty of arrival delays at LHR and some rather unusual holding patterns. Is it weather related or single runway ops, does anybody know?

There's a lot of thunderstorm activity in the vicinity of LHR at present, so I suspect that's the most likely explanation.